I have heard opinions that dzogchen is outside the 9 yanas. Therefore it seems to be a complete practice that can stand on its own without one also needing to practice tantra. I even read one opinion that it is not useful or desirable to practice them together. I am not experienced enough to judge the veracity of these statements, but I really appreciate your posts as even though I only follow authentic lineage holders, none of them has gone into this type of detail when giving empowerments or teachings.
There is a Dzogchen outside the nine yānas, but there is a catch. The Dzogchen that is outside the nine yānas is the Dzogchen of the direct perception of dharmatā. Otherwise, Dzogchen is the ninth yāna, since it is intellectual Dzogchen only, like the rest of the nine yānas. My upcoming Wisdom Course on the Nine Yānas is precisely around this distinction. Of course Dzogchen is a complete path of its own.
A real Dzogchen practitioner practices whatever they like or thinks they need at that moment.
Acharya, this point regarding the function of Tib. ‘prul ‘khor rnal ‘byor (yantra yoga) from the early stages of Vajrayana practice can be profoundly consequential. Some aspects of Trulkhor and bodily practice are related to the second and third empowerment. Are there aspects of Trulkhor or key points of body most appropriate, that can be learned and implemented from the outset, less tied to the Completion Phase?
Since anyone practicing anuttarayoga tantra will have received all four empowerments, they are suitable to learn yantra. The yantras in general can be practiced immediately upon being shown. Prāṇayāmas like khumbhaka can also be practiced immediately. While it is certain that perhaps beginners should hold off on applying forceful caṇḍāli methods, even the four cakra caṇḍali or the adjunct completion practices like those in Naro Khachoma can be practiced immediately, as well as the yantras. In particular, the warm ups for the yantras, like the eight movements in Yantra Yoga, or the five and twenty purifications in Lamdre can be practiced right away. Practicing the 25 asanas in Yantra Yoga and the 32 Activities in Lamdre however, etc., require more training. However another point is that creation and completion should be integrated from the very start. Even if one has no access to a yantra teacher, there is even benefit from practicing yoga in general.
As for karmudra practice, these days it is better to use a visualized mudra, or one's hand (hastamudrā).
Thank you. Jamgon Kongtrul has offered a few comments here and there about the precedent of practicing generation and completion together, and uniting kyerim/dzokrim. Because many traditions emphasize progressive training to the point that many unfortunately practice generation for decades at the exclusion of bodily practices of the Completion. Even here in Bodhgaya I am meeting many seasoned practitioners who have yet to access even basic wind yoga training, I believe to a detriment. This is observable in many lineages, and dovetails with a cultural disembodied, in general, and in Vajrayana culture. I have appreciated in your online courses you have spoken not only to the topic of subtle physiology but also referred practitioners to yantra and pranayama.
Hi James: Sakya Pandita also pointed out the necessity of unifying the two stages right from the start. Unfortunately people practice the two stages as if they are analyzing the two truths, first relative, then ultimate, without understand just as the two truths can never be separated, the two stages can never be separated. In pretty every much Sakya sadhana, the two stages are included in the yogas of equipoise, whereas the yogas of post equipoise is starts with mantra recitation. HHDL has also complained about this, observing that many people rush to the mantra, as if this were the main point of the two stages. It isn't. I agree with you that people should be introduced to prāṇayāma right away.
The myth that TsaLung and Tummo can lead to mental derangement(s) is still quite common. For me, it has served the opposite effect. Even pop psychology tells us that the "body keeps the score," and that we need to work directly with our physical bodies and pranic energy in order to experience resilient mental health.
These days, I mostly practice guru yoga/devotion...the warmth is much more steady and sustainable than that of Tummo. But I can only say this after having practiced yantra yoga etc. for over three decades.
Of course it happens, people also develop OCD and other anxiety disorders from practicing ngondro accumulations. But, seriously, what percentage of people have you seen develop mental disorders from TsaLung?
Enlightenment practices are best approached low and slow. They can be quite dangerous. Most important: There are ways to screen appropriate candidates suitable for TsaLung practice.
You mention the syllables in our channels govern our karmic vision and completion stage practices work to unravel these syllable knots in our channels. Is that the mechanism by which advanced practitioners achieve the deva eye and other types of clairvoyance, they are relaxing their karmic vision?
The trio of logic is direct perception, inference, and testimony. It just means critically evaluating things you hear people claim about Vajrayāna practice and then seeing if this is valid or not.
I have heard opinions that dzogchen is outside the 9 yanas. Therefore it seems to be a complete practice that can stand on its own without one also needing to practice tantra. I even read one opinion that it is not useful or desirable to practice them together. I am not experienced enough to judge the veracity of these statements, but I really appreciate your posts as even though I only follow authentic lineage holders, none of them has gone into this type of detail when giving empowerments or teachings.
There is a Dzogchen outside the nine yānas, but there is a catch. The Dzogchen that is outside the nine yānas is the Dzogchen of the direct perception of dharmatā. Otherwise, Dzogchen is the ninth yāna, since it is intellectual Dzogchen only, like the rest of the nine yānas. My upcoming Wisdom Course on the Nine Yānas is precisely around this distinction. Of course Dzogchen is a complete path of its own.
A real Dzogchen practitioner practices whatever they like or thinks they need at that moment.
Acharya, this point regarding the function of Tib. ‘prul ‘khor rnal ‘byor (yantra yoga) from the early stages of Vajrayana practice can be profoundly consequential. Some aspects of Trulkhor and bodily practice are related to the second and third empowerment. Are there aspects of Trulkhor or key points of body most appropriate, that can be learned and implemented from the outset, less tied to the Completion Phase?
Hi James:
Since anyone practicing anuttarayoga tantra will have received all four empowerments, they are suitable to learn yantra. The yantras in general can be practiced immediately upon being shown. Prāṇayāmas like khumbhaka can also be practiced immediately. While it is certain that perhaps beginners should hold off on applying forceful caṇḍāli methods, even the four cakra caṇḍali or the adjunct completion practices like those in Naro Khachoma can be practiced immediately, as well as the yantras. In particular, the warm ups for the yantras, like the eight movements in Yantra Yoga, or the five and twenty purifications in Lamdre can be practiced right away. Practicing the 25 asanas in Yantra Yoga and the 32 Activities in Lamdre however, etc., require more training. However another point is that creation and completion should be integrated from the very start. Even if one has no access to a yantra teacher, there is even benefit from practicing yoga in general.
As for karmudra practice, these days it is better to use a visualized mudra, or one's hand (hastamudrā).
Thank you. Jamgon Kongtrul has offered a few comments here and there about the precedent of practicing generation and completion together, and uniting kyerim/dzokrim. Because many traditions emphasize progressive training to the point that many unfortunately practice generation for decades at the exclusion of bodily practices of the Completion. Even here in Bodhgaya I am meeting many seasoned practitioners who have yet to access even basic wind yoga training, I believe to a detriment. This is observable in many lineages, and dovetails with a cultural disembodied, in general, and in Vajrayana culture. I have appreciated in your online courses you have spoken not only to the topic of subtle physiology but also referred practitioners to yantra and pranayama.
Hi James: Sakya Pandita also pointed out the necessity of unifying the two stages right from the start. Unfortunately people practice the two stages as if they are analyzing the two truths, first relative, then ultimate, without understand just as the two truths can never be separated, the two stages can never be separated. In pretty every much Sakya sadhana, the two stages are included in the yogas of equipoise, whereas the yogas of post equipoise is starts with mantra recitation. HHDL has also complained about this, observing that many people rush to the mantra, as if this were the main point of the two stages. It isn't. I agree with you that people should be introduced to prāṇayāma right away.
The myth that TsaLung and Tummo can lead to mental derangement(s) is still quite common. For me, it has served the opposite effect. Even pop psychology tells us that the "body keeps the score," and that we need to work directly with our physical bodies and pranic energy in order to experience resilient mental health.
These days, I mostly practice guru yoga/devotion...the warmth is much more steady and sustainable than that of Tummo. But I can only say this after having practiced yantra yoga etc. for over three decades.
It’s not a myth. I have personally observed it.
Of course it happens, people also develop OCD and other anxiety disorders from practicing ngondro accumulations. But, seriously, what percentage of people have you seen develop mental disorders from TsaLung?
Enlightenment practices are best approached low and slow. They can be quite dangerous. Most important: There are ways to screen appropriate candidates suitable for TsaLung practice.
I said, “severe psychosomatic disorder” these range from physical injury to vatta aggravation, so, many people, not just a few.
You mention the syllables in our channels govern our karmic vision and completion stage practices work to unravel these syllable knots in our channels. Is that the mechanism by which advanced practitioners achieve the deva eye and other types of clairvoyance, they are relaxing their karmic vision?
Even creation stage practices assist in this. One can attain the sixth bodhisattva stage merely by practicing creation stage in a proper way.
“in a proper way” being under the guidance of a guru and understanding what the process means?
Yes. There is a really nice statement by Ngorchen Kunga Zangpo:
"The inferior system of conceited mantrins.
is merely reciting liturgical arrangement and texts.
Discard this, and correctly practice the pure tantras
with valid reasoning through the trio of logic."
Is there somewhere you’d recommend looking to learn more about the “trio of logic” and how this relates to practice of the two stages?
The trio of logic is direct perception, inference, and testimony. It just means critically evaluating things you hear people claim about Vajrayāna practice and then seeing if this is valid or not.